Can any of the band describe the creation of IISFFGWG song?

[Revsta]

If I Should Fall From Grace With God would have to be my favorite Pogues song, even though it's so hard to choose, and I was just wondering how it all came together.

I'm in the process of forming a band of my own too so I'm interested in any aspect of song creation you guys could give me. For instance, did IISFFGWG start with lyrics or melody, as I really dig that beginning melody that dips down the octaves and comes back up. Was it a joint song like someone in the band had a melody and Shane had lyrics or was it less collaborative and one person's idea or what. I don't really have specific question but I'd love to hear the ins and outs of song creation in the Pogues, especially with this song or Bottle of Smoke

[philipchevron]

If I Should Fall From Grace With God would have to be my favorite Pogues song, even though it's so hard to choose, and I was just wondering how it all came together.

I'm in the process of forming a band of my own too so I'm interested in any aspect of song creation you guys could give me. For instance, did IISFFGWG start with lyrics or melody, as I really dig that beginning melody that dips down the octaves and comes back up. Was it a joint song like someone in the band had a melody and Shane had lyrics or was it less collaborative and one person's idea or what. I don't really have specific question but I'd love to hear the ins and outs of song creation in the Pogues, especially with this song or Bottle of Smoke

In the case of IISFFGWG, Shane wrote all the tunes (including the accordion melody at the start) and lyrics. With Bottle Of Smoke he wrote all the parts except the tune in the middle, which is Jem's.

What tends to happen, as with the middle tune in Thousands Are Sailing (which, like the rest of the song, was written by me) is that once the Pogues pick up on the riff or chorus or whatever, is that it starts to get syncopated in a really interesting way that owes as much to Quaker sacred music, dub reggae, rhythm n blues, country, Yiddish folk music, Appalachian mountain songs and the Clash as it does to the West Clare Pipering Tradition or, for that matter, the Irish-American early 20th century vaudeville music which was the original starting point. I guess this part of the process is what makes it Sound Like The Pogues, but the original writer retains the writing credit for the initial idea, mainly on the grounds that orchestration is not the same as composition, though it is, admittedly, a fine line sometimes.

Nobody taught us this. Like all bands, we figured it out ourselves. You will too. Even U2 did, a band who arrived at rehearsals in the early days with not a single song between them. Just play. Modify and adapt the bits you like. And enjoy.

[Revsta]

If I Should Fall From Grace With God would have to be my favorite Pogues song, even though it's so hard to choose, and I was just wondering how it all came together.

I'm in the process of forming a band of my own too so I'm interested in any aspect of song creation you guys could give me. For instance, did IISFFGWG start with lyrics or melody, as I really dig that beginning melody that dips down the octaves and comes back up. Was it a joint song like someone in the band had a melody and Shane had lyrics or was it less collaborative and one person's idea or what. I don't really have specific question but I'd love to hear the ins and outs of song creation in the Pogues, especially with this song or Bottle of Smoke

In the case of IISFFGWG, Shane wrote all the tunes (including the accordion melody at the start) and lyrics. With Bottle Of Smoke he wrote all the parts except the tune in the middle, which is Jem's.

What tends to happen, as with the middle tune in Thousands Are Sailing (which, like the rest of the song, was written by me) is that once the Pogues pick up on the riff or chorus or whatever, is that it starts to get syncopated in a really interesting way that owes as much to Quaker sacred music, dub reggae, rhythm n blues, country, Yiddish folk music, Appalachian mountain songs and the Clash as it does to the West Clare Pipering Tradition or, for that matter, the Irish-American early 20th century vaudeville music which was the original starting point. I guess this part of the process is what makes it Sound Like The Pogues, but the original writer retains the writing credit for the initial idea, mainly on the grounds that orchestration is not the same as composition, though it is, admittedly, a fine line sometimes.

Nobody taught us this. Like all bands, we figured it out ourselves. You will too. Even U2 did, a band who arrived at rehearsals in the early days with not a single song between them. Just play. Modify and adapt the bits you like. And enjoy.

Wow, thanks for the quick reply!

So here's my question though, as it seems to me the hummable melody at the beginning of Fall From Grace is played on the accordion, yah? Like the progression down the scale. Did Shane just come up with that by humming, or did he fiddle around with it on guitar or piano or something? And since I know you play guitar for the band, did you come up with the guitar for Thousands and Spider came up with the whistle at the beginning, or did you have that in your head too?

Personally when I'm figuring out melodies for songs I figure them out on the tin whistle or piano/accordion, as I'm not an accomplished guitarisst, but it kind of blows my mind and gives me a lot of respect that you guys came up with the melodies for fall from grace and Thousands, especially that beginning part in Fall From Grace which I think is just so amazing the way it moves so well.

And maybe it's just me, but I certainly couldn't come up with a melody like Bottle of Smoke, Jim's part I mean, unless I had been doing this for many years I guess.

[philipchevron]

If I Should Fall From Grace With God would have to be my favorite Pogues song, even though it's so hard to choose, and I was just wondering how it all came together.

I'm in the process of forming a band of my own too so I'm interested in any aspect of song creation you guys could give me. For instance, did IISFFGWG start with lyrics or melody, as I really dig that beginning melody that dips down the octaves and comes back up. Was it a joint song like someone in the band had a melody and Shane had lyrics or was it less collaborative and one person's idea or what. I don't really have specific question but I'd love to hear the ins and outs of song creation in the Pogues, especially with this song or Bottle of Smoke

In the case of IISFFGWG, Shane wrote all the tunes (including the accordion melody at the start) and lyrics. With Bottle Of Smoke he wrote all the parts except the tune in the middle, which is Jem's.

What tends to happen, as with the middle tune in Thousands Are Sailing (which, like the rest of the song, was written by me) is that once the Pogues pick up on the riff or chorus or whatever, is that it starts to get syncopated in a really interesting way that owes as much to Quaker sacred music, dub reggae, rhythm n blues, country, Yiddish folk music, Appalachian mountain songs and the Clash as it does to the West Clare Pipering Tradition or, for that matter, the Irish-American early 20th century vaudeville music which was the original starting point. I guess this part of the process is what makes it Sound Like The Pogues, but the original writer retains the writing credit for the initial idea, mainly on the grounds that orchestration is not the same as composition, though it is, admittedly, a fine line sometimes.

Nobody taught us this. Like all bands, we figured it out ourselves. You will too. Even U2 did, a band who arrived at rehearsals in the early days with not a single song between them. Just play. Modify and adapt the bits you like. And enjoy.

Wow, thanks for the quick reply!

So here's my question though, as it seems to me the hummable melody at the beginning of Fall From Grace is played on the accordion, yah? Like the progression down the scale. Did Shane just come up with that by humming, or did he fiddle around with it on guitar or piano or something? And since I know you play guitar for the band, did you come up with the guitar for Thousands and Spider came up with the whistle at the beginning, or did you have that in your head too?

Personally when I'm figuring out melodies for songs I figure them out on the tin whistle or piano/accordion, as I'm not an accomplished guitarisst, but it kind of blows my mind and gives me a lot of respect that you guys came up with the melodies for fall from grace and Thousands, especially that beginning part in Fall From Grace which I think is just so amazing the way it moves so well.

And maybe it's just me, but I certainly couldn't come up with a melody like Bottle of Smoke, Jim's part I mean, unless I had been doing this for many years I guess.

Shane could be heard in hotel rooms way into the middle of the night picking out tunes, riffs, whatever, on the acoustic guitar that went everywhere with him. Sometimes they were excruciating, sometimes they obviously had "legs". Usually, the rehearsal room was a great leveller. Shane's songs were not always as harmonically stuctured as they were in his head, so in a number of cases, myself or James or sometimes Terry would play the chords we felt he was reaching for and, if they met with a general "Yeah, like that" affirmation from the composer, they stayed. Once or twice, James or I snuck in our own suggestions in the hope that these would get a "Yeah, like that", or at least a wary "Uh....yeah". I do not mean to suggest Shane has a limited harmonic colour scheme - very far from it in fact - but he did not always have the same second-nature grasp of chording as James or myself (or Terry or Jem). Usually, melodies like Spider's whistle in "Thousands" were adapted by him from themes he picked up as he played along with the song - obviously, the start of "Thousands" is Spider's own adaptation of the chorus melody.

However, it would be wrong of me to suggest that the rollicking intro to "Fall From Grace" is exactly as Shane presented it in the rehearsal room. Though the tune is his, the syncopation is all James's, one might even say definitively James's.

[Revsta]

If I Should Fall From Grace With God would have to be my favorite Pogues song, even though it's so hard to choose, and I was just wondering how it all came together.

I'm in the process of forming a band of my own too so I'm interested in any aspect of song creation you guys could give me. For instance, did IISFFGWG start with lyrics or melody, as I really dig that beginning melody that dips down the octaves and comes back up. Was it a joint song like someone in the band had a melody and Shane had lyrics or was it less collaborative and one person's idea or what. I don't really have specific question but I'd love to hear the ins and outs of song creation in the Pogues, especially with this song or Bottle of Smoke

In the case of IISFFGWG, Shane wrote all the tunes (including the accordion melody at the start) and lyrics. With Bottle Of Smoke he wrote all the parts except the tune in the middle, which is Jem's.

What tends to happen, as with the middle tune in Thousands Are Sailing (which, like the rest of the song, was written by me) is that once the Pogues pick up on the riff or chorus or whatever, is that it starts to get syncopated in a really interesting way that owes as much to Quaker sacred music, dub reggae, rhythm n blues, country, Yiddish folk music, Appalachian mountain songs and the Clash as it does to the West Clare Pipering Tradition or, for that matter, the Irish-American early 20th century vaudeville music which was the original starting point. I guess this part of the process is what makes it Sound Like The Pogues, but the original writer retains the writing credit for the initial idea, mainly on the grounds that orchestration is not the same as composition, though it is, admittedly, a fine line sometimes.

Nobody taught us this. Like all bands, we figured it out ourselves. You will too. Even U2 did, a band who arrived at rehearsals in the early days with not a single song between them. Just play. Modify and adapt the bits you like. And enjoy.

Wow, thanks for the quick reply!

So here's my question though, as it seems to me the hummable melody at the beginning of Fall From Grace is played on the accordion, yah? Like the progression down the scale. Did Shane just come up with that by humming, or did he fiddle around with it on guitar or piano or something? And since I know you play guitar for the band, did you come up with the guitar for Thousands and Spider came up with the whistle at the beginning, or did you have that in your head too?

Personally when I'm figuring out melodies for songs I figure them out on the tin whistle or piano/accordion, as I'm not an accomplished guitarisst, but it kind of blows my mind and gives me a lot of respect that you guys came up with the melodies for fall from grace and Thousands, especially that beginning part in Fall From Grace which I think is just so amazing the way it moves so well.

And maybe it's just me, but I certainly couldn't come up with a melody like Bottle of Smoke, Jim's part I mean, unless I had been doing this for many years I guess.

Shane could be heard in hotel rooms way into the middle of the night picking out tunes, riffs, whatever, on the acoustic guitar that went everywhere with him. Sometimes they were excruciating, sometimes they obviously had "legs". Usually, the rehearsal room was a great leveller. Shane's songs were not always as harmonically stuctured as they were in his head, so in a number of cases, myself or James or sometimes Terry would play the chords we felt he was reaching for and, if they met with a general "Yeah, like that" affirmation from the composer, they stayed. Once or twice, James or I snuck in our own suggestions in the hope that these would get a "Yeah, like that", or at least a wary "Uh....yeah". I do not mean to suggest Shane has a limited harmonic colour scheme - very far from it in fact - but he did not always have the same second-nature grasp of chording as James or myself (or Terry or Jem). Usually, melodies like Spider's whistle in "Thousands" were adapted by him from themes he picked up as he played along with the song - obviously, the start of "Thousands" is Spider's own adaptation of the chorus melody.

However, it would be wrong of me to suggest that the rollicking intro to "Fall From Grace" is exactly as Shane presented it in the rehearsal room. Though the tune is his, the syncopation is all James's, one might even say definitively James's.

Ah, well it is nice to hear that the entire song didn't just fall out of Shane's head and that it was a collaborative effort, as that would sort of scare me. I don't play guitar well so guitar choruses seem mostly like chord progression that's already been established, ya? That's the thing I really feel is amazing about IISFFGWG the Album, is the incredible range of melodies in the record, from Fall From Grace to Bottle of Smoke to Thousands and Lullaby, Shannon, and one of my favorite's White City.

Was there a concious effort by the band to shift any of the musical style in IISFFGWG album, as it seems to me quite different than any of the other albums. The melodies seem less concerned with the chorus but more with the lead in melodies, correct me if I'm wrong but that's how I think of them.

[philipchevron]

I think White City is on a different record, but anyway...............we never made conscious decisions to do anything really. Naturally, changes of personnel affect things somewhat but also you just get better as a band, more intuitive, as time goes on. And in our case, we just tried to emulate everything we dug, see if it worked in Poguetry. Beyond that, apparent changes of style between albums is more the effect of confidence, exhaustion, reconciliation, etc etc, than anything you sit down and plan. Some bands DO consciously "change direction", but usually, they're just wankers anyway.

[Revsta]

Yeah, well either way thanks a lot for letting me in on the band's process. It's really great to know. I hope to start a similar style band here in Maine, but I don't know how far I'm going to get, just the fact that I'm in the U.S. I'm largely Irish myself, and I'm trying to put together something in a Pogues/Cherry Cokes/semi-Flogging Molly style without all the damned electric guitars, but I'm not sure how far it's going to get starting out here, but the least I can do is try.

I've picked up the tin whistle and accordion (struggling so far with accordion), and am coming up with melodies and lyrics and whatnot, so I cannot wait until I have other musicians to help me take off and bring their own things to the table.

Any plans for another US tour next year? I'd love to see you again. You guys played a great show at the Orpheum I was able to catch, and sounded great.

[philipchevron]

I don't play guitar well so guitar choruses seem mostly like chord progression that's already been established, ya?

That all depends. As someone whose entire musical grounding as a child was in showtunes, I found our version of Cole Porter's "Just One Of Those Things" presented me with a problem. I know how the song is harmonically, I know how the chording moves, yet, in the Pogues version, I was being called upon to jettison most of Porter's delicate harmonic undertow. I just could not bring myself to do it on the guitar, yet I also understood that this was how the Pogues version needed to be. And that's why I play mandola throughout that recording, which has no guitar part on it at all. I came up with a counterpoint tune played throughout on the mandola, which hinted at the abandoned chords without actually settling on any of them. We then doubled the counterpoint with backing vocals, giving Mr Porter a Jewish-immigrant sensibility he never actually had (he was famously one of the only Broadway composers who was not a Jewish immigrant, though his homosexuality lent him a sort of honorary outsider status).

Good luck with the band.

[Revsta]

Oh, I don't think I've heard that one. Where can I find it?

[CraigBatty]

Oh, I don't think I've heard that one. Where can I find it?

On "Red, Hot, & Blue" ( A Tribute To Cole Porter )

The Pogues AND Kirsty... what more could you want? I've been wearing grooves into this CD for years...

Just Click HERE:

[Revsta]

Oh, I don't think I've heard that one. Where can I find it?

On "Red, Hot, & Blue" ( A Tribute To Cole Porter )

The Pogues AND Kirsty... what more could you want? I've been wearing grooves into this CD for years...

Just Click HERE:

Thanks!

[CraigBatty]

Thanks!

Tá fáilte romhat ar fad - You're altogether welcome Revsta. It is a fantastic album and a great and worthwhile cause which it supports.
Thank YOU for the great conversation you were having with our Sensei about songwriting - inspiring insightful stuff.

[Caukill]

i have to say that in my current situation (currently holed-up in rural France, have drunk so much that tomorrow i won't be able to make a fist!) this thread has been my favourite in ages . Thanks.
The 'creative process' is often pondered by an idiot such as meself and am fascinated by the origins of my favourite works such as this. I feel enlightened . If only for a moment.......

[Revsta]

I think White City is on a different record, but anyway...............we never made conscious decisions to do anything really. Naturally, changes of personnel affect things somewhat but also you just get better as a band, more intuitive, as time goes on. And in our case, we just tried to emulate everything we dug, see if it worked in Poguetry. Beyond that, apparent changes of style between albums is more the effect of confidence, exhaustion, reconciliation, etc etc, than anything you sit down and plan. Some bands DO consciously "change direction", but usually, they're just wankers anyway.

Yea, White City is Peace and Love, but to me it should have been on Fall From Grace, and pardon me if that's a silly outsiders thing to say, but it has that Fall From Grace album feel to it to me. It's fast, it's a tad angry in my opinion, and it has Mr. Fearnley's flat out geniously bonkers rip roaring accordion intro that I have come to love so much. Something about White City just screams that to me, I'm not sure why.

I'm trying to find an accordionist for my band now, but it's so damned hard where I live

[Eric V]

i have to say that in my current situation (currently holed-up in rural France, have drunk so much that tomorrow i won't be able to make a fist!) this thread has been my favourite in ages . Thanks.
The 'creative process' is often pondered by an idiot such as meself and am fascinated by the origins of my favourite works such as this. I feel enlightened . If only for a moment.......

That's all fine.... but you , Caukill, must think of yourself. With cars alight, and the pigs (in french it must sound better) searching for the non-french-speaking it must be horrible. Hence your condition. I will give you some advice that was passed on by a friend. Do not log out. You must immediately hire a car and flee the country. Go to Belgium. You will find in the Abbey at Chimey a monk named Guy St. Germain ... at least that is what you will know him as. Buy him a Dutch gin with bitters and he will point you to a safe house. If all else fails, PM me.... I may have to deny all of this, especially if DzM and the Medusa server has been compromised. Incidentally, I agree -- this was a fantastic thread. Now GO! And heaven help you for the hangover that awaits you in Belgium. My thoughts turn now to Nigeria, and the state of affairs there......