Pogues and Politics

[theguyfrompoguetry.com]

Greetings all. I've been awol for awhile here, but wanted to let folks know that I'm working on transforming the poguetry.com website into a book length treatment examining the Pogues and resurgent Irish nationalism. The opening stab at that move is available online at: http://faculty.njcu.edu/fmoran/nepsa2007.pdf
I'd appreciate any comment/feedback; particularly in the tone/tenor. The book will expand on the different sections in the paper. Have a happy and a merry.

Thanks!
Fran
http://www.poguetry.com

[DzM]

Greetings all. I've been awol for awhile here

Hey! It's Fran! Hi Fran!

Pleased to be staying!

[theguyfrompoguetry.com]

Greetings all. I've been awol for awhile here

Hey! It's Fran! Hi Fran!

Pleased to be staying!

lol. Yo DzM! Greetings right back and it's good to be back. long time wandering in the wilderness.

[firehazard]

Really good to see you on here, Fran. Been a long-time admirer of your site.

[Christine]

Fran, good to see you here. I couldn't have done without your site over the years! I'm sure it will make a fantastic book, get Josie to do some photos for it too.

[Phoist]

It was a good paper the only gripe I have is you dismiss SLF as having no political output when they are overtly political and nationalist throughout their whole run.

[theguyfrompoguetry.com]

It was a good paper the only gripe I have is you dismiss SLF as having no political output when they are overtly political and nationalist throughout their whole run.

Hi... first, thanks for taking the trouble to plow through the article, and I appreciate the comments. I didn't mean to be dismissive of SLF, more sorta just pumping up the Pogues. The conference where I gave the paper was a political science affair and I was a bit sensitive to a possible critique that I was wasting their time, so I tried to add some stuff at the beginning to show the band merited study. On the other hand, check out the citation I have for that reference, that article took the Northern Irish punk movement to task pretty harshly for not being "punky" enough in their political edge. That is, the music was edgy, but the politics weren't. Here's the reference: Rolston, Bill. 2001. “‘This is Not a Rebel Song’: The Irish Conflict and Popular Music.” Race
& Class 42(3):49-67. It's a good article, mostly comparing the (genuine) Marley concert brokering peace between rival parties in JA in the midst of a violent election campaign, and the staged U2 Belfast show bringing together some of the players in the Troubles following the Good Friday accords (I think).

[theguyfrompoguetry.com]

Fran, good to see you here. I couldn't have done without your site over the years! I'm sure it will make a fantastic book, get Josie to do some photos for it too.

Thanks for the kind words Christine. It's good to know folks have found Poguetry useful and/or fun.

[Phoist]

It was a good paper the only gripe I have is you dismiss SLF as having no political output when they are overtly political and nationalist throughout their whole run.

Hi... first, thanks for taking the trouble to plow through the article, and I appreciate the comments. I didn't mean to be dismissive of SLF, more sorta just pumping up the Pogues. The conference where I gave the paper was a political science affair and I was a bit sensitive to a possible critique that I was wasting their time, so I tried to add some stuff at the beginning to show the band merited study. On the other hand, check out the citation I have for that reference, that article took the Northern Irish punk movement to task pretty harshly for not being "punky" enough in their political edge. That is, the music was edgy, but the politics weren't. Here's the reference: Rolston, Bill. 2001. “‘This is Not a Rebel Song’: The Irish Conflict and Popular Music.” Race
& Class 42(3):49-67. It's a good article, mostly comparing the (genuine) Marley concert brokering peace between rival parties in JA in the midst of a violent election campaign, and the staged U2 Belfast show bringing together some of the players in the Troubles following the Good Friday accords (I think).

Thanks for the heads up. I'm doing my degree (and hopefully eventual postgrad) in Irish History and Politics so I'll be sure to find the article and would be thrilled to read anything else you've written or recommend.

[Nate]

ok, i've got a bunch of comments. i don't know if they'll seem overly critical, but believe me - i want this paper/book project to succeed because i believe the pogues are worth treating like a serious academic subject. i think you got a good start and if i thought your paper was shit i wouldn't have taken the time to write these out.

also, i'm assuming this is going to be for an academic audience, not a popular one, so i write with that in mind.

The respective influence of each band is no doubt due in part to the fact that each counts at least one, and perhaps more, musical geniuses in their number.

-should you really be talking about musical genius in a political science paper? this notion is fraught with pretty complex theoretical problems that remain unresolved in much literary criticism. do you really need that to make the case that the pogues are worth studying?

-re: gaelic. interestingly, the irish language is often given equal time on trad radio programs. see, for example, the late session or ceili house in which interviews are frequently conducted in irish without translation. furthermore, these programs run on RTE1, a station that is not usually marketed to “irish” speakers. That to me indicates a distinct connection between musical tradition and the irish language.

-assuming you’re aiming for accuracy you probably ought not use “jig” to describe sickbed. the term “jig” picks out a certain form of tune, played in a certain meter (6/8, 9/8 for example).

-re: the ira, on some bootlegs of transmetropolitan, clearly audible is “up the ira,” though I think this is best explained by the band’s love of provocation and less about supporting any given paramilitary organization

-absent in your paper is any sustained discussion of religion. it seems clear to me that religion is at least worth touching upon in terms of "the troubles" and even more interesting because it doesn’t seem like the pogues are particularly interested in being associated with catholic or protestant ideologies. (for example, 1000s, or even look back to radiators songs). further, i’d be careful of conflating a sense of irishness with catholicism in your paper. there maybe people who do believe catholicism to be an essential part of irishness, but not the pogues.

- also absent is any real discussion of the different ideological components of irish politics. There are conservative & radical nationalists/republicans/unionists/etc. talking about which component the pogues seem to be allied with, would seem to make sense for a political science paper. i’d say they tend to come down on the “progressive” side.

-you open by talking about irishness and the pogues contributions to that notion, but later you opt to define “national identity” as the relevant concept. these seem to be distinct and ought to be kept apart (or if you disagree, you should make the point clear). irishness, by my lights, seems to be something constructed from outside the country whereas a national identity might be constructed from within. i think it makes sense that you link the pogues with irishness if only because i think it would have been impossible for the pogues to emerge from Ireland itself. and since you bring up james joyce and beckett, it might be worth at least mentioning that those two did their best work outside of the 32 counties.

some other passing thoughts:
-a large part of the pogues repertoire does not conform to a notion of irishness, musically. that is, starting with poguetry in motion (pretty early on) musical forms not usually associated with ireland start cropping up. what does that mean for your claim that their music, as opposed to their personae, had some measurable impact on the construction of "irishness"?

i might have more later, but i've got to take a fucking shower.

keep up the good work fran!

1st addition: although most people (at least on this site) would tend to find the pogues output to be politically progressive, that is not always the case. there is a paper (search for it on jstor) that references turkish song of the damned as an example of musical orientalism. i think it's rather persuasive and shows that the pogues are not immune to the same type of criticism that they level at the structues of power in their songs.

[graham love]

It was a good paper the only gripe I have is you dismiss SLF as having no political output when they are overtly political and nationalist throughout their whole run.

might just be me, but i've never picked up on this. As far as i'm aware the band had members of both communities at different. To quote Jake burns himself

[quote = 'Stiff Little Fingers: song by song']

There are catholics and protestants in the band and we're not telling you who's who because it doesn't fucking matter!

...

We always tried to play venues in the city centre so that it wouldn't be a case of one community or the other[/quote]

[Phoist]

It was a good paper the only gripe I have is you dismiss SLF as having no political output when they are overtly political and nationalist throughout their whole run.

might just be me, but i've never picked up on this. As far as i'm aware the band had members of both communities at different. To quote Jake burns himself

[quote = 'Stiff Little Fingers: song by song']

There are catholics and protestants in the band and we're not telling you who's who because it doesn't fucking matter!

...

We always tried to play venues in the city centre so that it wouldn't be a case of one community or the other

[/quote]

While not militantly nationalist and clearly denouncing the paramilitaries the Stiff Little Fingers self identify as irish and talk openly about british discrimination against so called 'green-WOGs' which sounds pretty nationalist to me

[theguyfrompoguetry.com]

ok, i've got a bunch of comments. i don't know if they'll seem overly critical, but believe me - i want this paper/book project to succeed because i believe the pogues are worth treating like a serious academic subject. i think you got a good start and if i thought your paper was shit i wouldn't have taken the time to write these out.

also, i'm assuming this is going to be for an academic audience, not a popular one, so i write with that in mind.

The respective influence of each band is no doubt due in part to the fact that each counts at least one, and perhaps more, musical geniuses in their number.

-should you really be talking about musical genius in a political science paper? this notion is fraught with pretty complex theoretical problems that remain unresolved in much literary criticism. do you really need that to make the case that the pogues are worth studying?

-re: gaelic. interestingly, the irish language is often given equal time on trad radio programs. see, for example, the late session or ceili house in which interviews are frequently conducted in irish without translation. furthermore, these programs run on RTE1, a station that is not usually marketed to “irish” speakers. That to me indicates a distinct connection between musical tradition and the irish language.

-assuming you’re aiming for accuracy you probably ought not use “jig” to describe sickbed. the term “jig” picks out a certain form of tune, played in a certain meter (6/8, 9/8 for example).

-re: the ira, on some bootlegs of transmetropolitan, clearly audible is “up the ira,” though I think this is best explained by the band’s love of provocation and less about supporting any given paramilitary organization

-absent in your paper is any sustained discussion of religion. it seems clear to me that religion is at least worth touching upon in terms of "the troubles" and even more interesting because it doesn’t seem like the pogues are particularly interested in being associated with catholic or protestant ideologies. (for example, 1000s, or even look back to radiators songs). further, i’d be careful of conflating a sense of irishness with catholicism in your paper. there maybe people who do believe catholicism to be an essential part of irishness, but not the pogues.

- also absent is any real discussion of the different ideological components of irish politics. There are conservative & radical nationalists/republicans/unionists/etc. talking about which component the pogues seem to be allied with, would seem to make sense for a political science paper. i’d say they tend to come down on the “progressive” side.

-you open by talking about irishness and the pogues contributions to that notion, but later you opt to define “national identity” as the relevant concept. these seem to be distinct and ought to be kept apart (or if you disagree, you should make the point clear). irishness, by my lights, seems to be something constructed from outside the country whereas a national identity might be constructed from within. i think it makes sense that you link the pogues with irishness if only because i think it would have been impossible for the pogues to emerge from Ireland itself. and since you bring up james joyce and beckett, it might be worth at least mentioning that those two did their best work outside of the 32 counties.

some other passing thoughts:
-a large part of the pogues repertoire does not conform to a notion of irishness, musically. that is, starting with poguetry in motion (pretty early on) musical forms not usually associated with ireland start cropping up. what does that mean for your claim that their music, as opposed to their personae, had some measurable impact on the construction of "irishness"?

i might have more later, but i've got to take a fucking shower.

keep up the good work fran!

1st addition: although most people (at least on this site) would tend to find the pogues output to be politically progressive, that is not always the case. there is a paper (search for it on jstor) that references turkish song of the damned as an example of musical orientalism. i think it's rather persuasive and shows that the pogues are not immune to the same type of criticism that they level at the structues of power in their songs.

[color=green]Nate: Can you drop me a line via email (fmoran@njcu.edu) to go over all this in more detail?... I'd rather not clutter the forum up. But here's some quickies:

On the jig/reel.... my daughter has been doing Irish dance for like 16 years and she'd kill me for getting the Sickbed wrong. And on the gaelic... I've been over in Eire a couple of times, and have watched RTE and the gaelic shows (usually dreadful soap operas and tacky game shows it seemed to me), but out in the "real world" I didn't hear much. At the touristy spots the guide would give a line or two and then go right into English. The only spot I heard much was out in Killarney and on the Aran Islands. I applaud the effort, but it's a losing battle, I fear.

As for the audience... that's one of the reasons I posted here (the other of course being the accuracy and additions)... but my short answer is I'm not sure yet. It'll make a difference as to where I shop the book. I'm certain I can get this out to some academic presses, but I think there might be other reasons (cha-ching!) for me to try to shop it to some "regular" publishers. So right now I think it's straddling and the two, and I'll have to jump off the fence soon.

As I noted in the orginal post, I look at this as an early version of the introductory chapter. The ensuing chapters would expand on the various components of "the nation" and the Irish nation in particular: literature, music, emigration, drinking, etc. So your points are well taken about the nuances of the politics, and I hope to have those developed more in the specialized chapters.

And just one other quick point... I'll argue that the inclusion of other musical sources in the music mirrors the broader Irish emigration experience; in effect they're doing that merging of Irish heritage with others; matching the emigration experience in song (ie., adding elements of American, spanish, asian, etc.). The Chieftains have been doing there version of it for the past decade or so. I develop that in the chapter on their emigration songs.

Thank you for the input! I really appreciate it. [/font][/i]

[Guest]

While not militantly nationalist and clearly denouncing the paramilitaries the Stiff Little Fingers self identify as irish and talk openly about british discrimination against so called 'green-WOGs' which sounds pretty nationalist to me

Fair enough, I just heard it as an anti-bigotry, anti-state oppression sentiment.

The song you're referring to also mentions the treatment that blacks, asians and jews got in Britain at the time as well.

Personally I'd define irish nationalist as campaigning for a 32 county ireland, which is something that SLF never did explicitly.

But then again, to put my views in context, i saw Streets of Sorrow/Birmingham Six as a song about miscarraiges of justice rather than larger political aims

[graham love]

sorry, the above post is mine